In Conversation With Dillon Tucker On His Directorial Debut 'Pure O'
Daniel Dorr in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
Earlier this month, I had the pleasure of chatting with Dillon Tucker, whose directorial debut, Pure O, had its world premiere at SXSW earlier this week. Pure O is a drama based on Dillon’s own life and his diagnosis of OCD and how it affected him and those around him. The film follows Cooper Ganz, a character based on [Dillon Tucker], as his life quickly spirals out of control after being diagnosed with OCD and what allows him to stabilize and understand his condition.
This interview was edited for brevity and clarity.
This Week Media: First off, I’d love to say that I really enjoyed the film; I just want to congratulate you on this accomplishment and thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.
Dillon Tucker: Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for taking the time to watch the film and to talk to me.
(L-R) Daniel Dorr & Hope Lauren in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
TWM: Of course! I'd love to start at the beginning of the film because there was a line that really stood out. It's the one that says, “I should be happy, but I'm crippled with fear.” It not only gave a sense of what we're gonna get in the rest of the film but how it's gonna approach OCD and mental health. I'd love to know, at what point in the writing process did you come across this line? And then how did that impact the rest of the writing and the production for you?
Tucker: Yeah, I don't think I'm somebody that starts with particular lines that I'm looking for to place or plug them in or anything like that. That's not necessarily my process. I think it came about a little bit more organically than that. But I definitely think that what you're experiencing from it is something that is naturally sort of tied to the theme of the film, which is what it is. It's somebody at the beginning [of the film] who is really struggling with his own stigmas about mental health. And it’s something he's coming to terms with it throughout the entire film. So I think that that feeling of not knowing and not knowing how you feel, but knowing that expectation of how you should feel. I think that's something that we all feel, as humans, you know, and I think that that gets us into trouble. A lot of times, when you're not present, and you're not in the moment with somebody, and you're feeling as though there's an expectation of how you should feel a certain way, and then it comes up empty, and you're crippled with fear. So I think it was less something that was planted in there specifically as aligned, but more something that was attached to the theme as a whole.
TWM: I love that theme and that idea. One thing that you've talked about is the need to accurately represent OCD and mental and behavioral health in this film, and also how it specifically hasn't been represented well in television and film. I'm curious what the key aspects were for you that you knew from the beginning, “I have to talk about this,” or else I'm not going to be able to do what I need to do with this film.
Tucker: Yeah, I think that there were a lot of things that fall into that category. What I wanted to really show was that it was kind of twofold, right? First, I wanted to show what the sufferer actually experiences in an accurate way. That's not something that’s just touching doorknobs, or, you know, like The Aviator, or Howard Hughes or something like that. I wanted to show the mental aspects of what people go through. First, I wanted to introduce the audience to what it looks like. And then I also wanted to show an accurate depiction of how these things are treated because this was so new to me when I was going through and experiencing it; I didn't even know it existed. And then, so many of the therapeutic techniques that are used are sort of unconventional ways in there; the way that an OCD brain works is so different from a normal brain in terms of things that would help a normal brain in terms of talk therapy — you talking about things can actually make it worse when you have OCD. And so it's tough because you're still a human being at the end of the day. And not everything is OCD, so you still have things that you're dealing with that you do need to talk about therapeutically. But you just need to kind of create those boundaries. And it's really difficult. Even having been through it and continuing to manage it, it's just really hard to know when it's something that you should treat as OCD. So I just wanted to try to mind that as much as possible and to show both what it looks like and also how it's treated. And so, within the specifics of that, I just wanted to stick to those two things. And try to obviously have it hopefully be something entertaining and universal at the same time. That was definitely a big part of the project.
Daniel Dorr in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
TWM: One thing in your statement that I really found to be interesting is the process of therapy through art and music and how you use musical inspiration in this film, based on pieces that you wrote at that time in your life and who you listened to. But I'd love to know if these are all new original songs [written during production] or if they’re songs that you wrote years ago and have been sitting in the pages of a journal waiting to see the light.
Tucker: Yeah, these are. I used music that was specifically from when the film takes place in my life. And I did that very intentionally because anything that I could [write] right now, I would just be trying to re-access where I was at that time. And luckily, I am a songwriter, and I had stuff that I was literally writing when I was going through all that and all those specific experiences. Knowing that I had [the songs], I wrote them into the script, and I wrote those specific sequences into the story for that reason. My mother was an art therapy teacher, so I had a front-row seat to that growing up, and she's an artist, and I grew up in an artistic household. So music and art have always been therapy for me, in one sense, you know, in entertainment, and in another. But I find that every time I've gone through things in life, that led me to turn to music and art. I definitely wanted to be an advocate for that within the film. And it also naturally, as you said, was just cohesive and fit into the storyline of what we were doing.
TWM: Absolutely. And I'm curious, because you talk about music and art as a whole, in your head, how are you comparing the processes of writing original music and songs to that of this film and its screenplay? Are there similarities? Or is it totally different in two different parts of your brain?
Tucker: I mean, writing, writing songs and writing scripts is is totally different. I mean, it's all storytelling in one sense. I mean, I'm a storyteller. You know, whether whatever that form is, whether that's, I always say that it works together, I tend to write music while I'm writing screenplays, because if I'm in the middle of writing a scene, and I'm kind of stuck, I'll just pick up my guitar, and I'll start writing a song. Because that's a way for me to sort of take my brain, I think that writing a screenplay or writing anything on your computer is more of a cerebral process. Whereas when you pick up an instrument, and you connect to it, it's actually one of the things that when you have OCD that they tell you about is to engage in a pleasurable activity, it's actually one of the, you're supposed to do something that takes you out of your head, and it has a physical component to it. So it's something it's a way that I can still keep all those creative juices flowing. But it's a different part of my brain that's not necessarily as cerebral, so I'll kind of just start playing the guitar, and then naturally, those juices will be flowing, and then I'll stop playing guitar. And actually, it will create a bit of at least for me, as an artist, it'll create, like a bit of a space to where I can go back to my writing, and I've stepped away from it. But I've still kept my brain engaged in a in a creative way. So I find that it's, it's very symbiotic when I, when I'm writing scripts and doing music that they tend to kind of be synergistic and aid the other.
Landry Bender in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
TWM: One thing about the synergy and the symbiotic relationship that I'm curious about — for you, when you're stepping into the role of the director on this film as well as being the writer, did that change that process at all for you? When when you hit sort of writer's block, do you step into the director position and think, how am I going to shoot out this scene that I just wrote?
Tucker: Oh, that's interesting. I guess I've never really thought about it like that. Maybe not as much on set just because I have the script and was already really honed in. So more than anything, the script is there. That's just your that's your blueprint for the whole thing. So yeah, maybe not as much with the writing-directing. Knowing that I was going to direct it, direct it and write for it, I was already thinking about how I was going to shoot it. I think those two are more entwined, I guess, with the process. I feel like [being] the director was kind of an extension of my writing process.
TWM: Oe thing that I really wanted to ask you about is that directors making films about their lives is something we see somewhat frequently, but it's not usually the first film they make. I wanted to know what made this time in your life the right time to make this film as opposed to 10 years from now or 10 years ago.
Tucker: I think that the reason that it was right for this time is that this was a period of my life that was maybe seven or eight years ago at this point. I didn't want to make the film when I was going through everything, and I was too close to it, where it would just be shrouded in bias. I also didn't want to write it when I was so far removed from it that I kind of had forgotten some of the more intrinsic aspects of what had happened. I wanted to write it in this space where I was through everything and on the other side while still being able to remember everything and kind of access it as I was writing it and creating it. So that's why I chose this time. And also, as I wrote this script, I was working on another film that had kind of a bigger scope and shoots in a foreign country, and we were getting it off the ground before the pandemic, and then the pandemic, obviously, put a stop to that. So I was sitting, and I'm from LA, and I was thinking about a story that I had that was a little bit more intimate, and that this script came out. And then it became a much more doable script in terms of it being all made in my backyard. It just felt right. I gave it to a longtime creative collaborator of mine, Ricky Fosheim, who's my producer and my cinematographer on the project. We just got together right away. And he just was like, “This just feels this feels like the one man. It just feels like it's doable. It's personal.” They say to stick to what you know, and I think especially for [my] directorial debut, [I wanted] to do something that's as close to [myself] as possible because I think it also just helps in the process of learning a lot when you're directing your first film. It's nice to have that thing to lean back on if you're ever questioning how something should be done or what's going on. To be able to lean back into your own experience and to know that, okay, I can trust [it], I don't have to ask that question, I know what that was like because I've been through it. I think it was a good thing to lean into.
(Center) Daniel Dorr in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
TWM: I'd love to pick your brain for a second about leaning into your own experiences — one scene that really stood out is the scene where Cooper and Emily are meeting with the OCD specialist. It's so well written because you kind of get to see the thought process play out in real-time. For you, when you're approaching the scene at a writing point, and then when you're getting ready to shoot that, was there anything that you just thought, “this either needs to stay in or stay out” for this to be told through a fair, but also, an objective lens?
Tucker: Well, yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff at that scene where he really wanted to do it right. Obviously, a lot of this is my own experience, but I did have eyes on the script from previous therapists and people that have the condition, much more than just my own experience. I think with all of that, not just that scene, [with] everything that was depicting OCD, I wanted to make sure that it really passed the grade of anybody that either is a therapist or has gone through this experience and that they could really look at it and see that this is really how it's done, you know, that was important. Also, a huge part of making the film in the first place was to show an accurate depiction of what this was to really hopefully de-stigmatize [this condition]. So not just that scene, but I really wanted to hone in on all of the therapeutic aspects and try to do it as accurately as possible.
TWM: For you as a director, now having had this experience, is this something that you think, “I want to keep doing this, I want to keep directing.”
Tucker: Yeah.
TWM: So you're not going to, you know, take a break from captaining the ship and go back to just writing or acting —this is it for you?
Tucker: Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s funny; I never really aspired to be a director, to be completely honest with you. I went to drama school and I've been an actor for 20 years. I wrote and starred in my first features, and then just naturally, shifted behind the camera [because] this was also such a personal story. I considered acting in it as well, but I thought that it would be better served to bring in a different voice. I really wanted to bring in a different perspective and a different voice to it to get out of my own story. But no, of course, as a writer and as a filmmaker, I love it. I love directing. And we'll see — I don't want to stop doing the other things as well, but I certainly am hoping to continue my directing career.
(L-R) Daniel Dorr & Hope Lauren in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
TWM: I think that's something that we see in a lot of people but I'd love to know for you as a director. Is there another aspect of your life that you think you would like to revisit in film that could potentially help people get a better understanding not only of this condition but of another thing that you've had to go through in your own life?
Tucker: Yeah, I'm sure I could. There's a little bit of an idea for something else, and I take the good ideas wherever they come from, whether that's my own experience or something that's more narrative. This wasn't something that I set out intentionally, being like, “Oh, I want to make a film about my life.” It was really just happenstance. I went through a series of events that hit in a million different ways, and I was just [in] this really intense period of life [because of] this thing that I didn't know about. I wouldn't say that it's something I'm on the lookout for, that I'm trying to do, but as I go forward and I'm living my life, I'm happy to take the ideas wherever they come from, and if that happens to be from my own experience, and I feel like it's going to be beneficial to a universal audience, I'm not going to turn away from it. I'd be willing to be vulnerable to mine and to that experience. It’s not exclusive, though. I'm not somebody that only wants to try to make these films that are about my life; I definitely want to take good ideas wherever they come from.
TWM: And then, as you're looking ahead to the future, is there anything specific that you are looking to do?
Tucker: Yeah, I have my next film — [it’s] one that I was working on before [Pure O] but kind of got sidetracked with the pandemic. It’s a film called Just Never Leave. It's about an ex-pat American punk rocker who has to pull a crime job in a foreign country to help pay for something to help her lover out. And it's kind of got a Drive/Taxi Driver feel and is a little bit more of a crime thriller. But that's the next film that I am actively in development on that I'm hoping to make soon.
TWM: That sounds super sweet — I’d definitely see that.
Tucker: Oh, thanks!
TWM: Of course! When you're thinking about the festival circuit, and SXSW, in particular, because this is where you're having your world premiere. For you, what makes this a successful festival experience?
(L-R) Hope Lauren & Daniel Dorr in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
Tucker: I mean, I think it's already successful, just the fact that as a filmmaker, you make these films, and then you're just going against the numbers, and there are just thousands of talented people out there doing these kinds of things. Especially with a film like ours, it's a drama that has yet to be discovered talent, and it's dealing with sort of heavier issues. We're really reliant upon kind of these gatekeepers and these curators that are these small teams for only a few festivals. You're reliant upon their tastes and your reliance upon them, giving you a platform and a voice for your project. So I can't thank South by Southwest and the programming team enough for having us and bringing us to the festival, and giving us this platform and this voice. In so many ways, I think it's already successful. But what would make it really successful is, I mean, obviously, as a filmmaker, always trying to sell your film, you're trying to get it out there. But even just starting with the festival, if anybody in the audience sees this film and is able to see aspects of themselves and can find the help they need. I really want the film to just find OCD sufferers who are suffering in silence and be able to help them and have people that are entertained walk away and talk about it to de-stigmatize this [condition]. Maybe when you leave the theater, you have a loved one or a friend or somebody and you say, “Hey, you should maybe check out this movie; I just think that maybe there's some stuff in there that might touch you or get through to you.” That's going to be what's successful to me, ultimately, is if that word of mouth coming out of the festival is like, “Hey, here's this film that is really entertaining and universal but also can really kind of give you some insight into this thing that's underrepresented.” But also because I'm here talking to you, and you have this fantastic website, and you're sharing it with the world. I'm getting to talk to all these people who are going to help put this message into the world. So that's already a success. I just want to see more and more of that continue.
TWM: One thing that you talked about is what you want people to get out of this, but if you could take a part of this process and give one piece of advice to someone who wants to make a film of this nature or something that reflects their own story or their own experience, what do you think that would be?
Tucker: It would be to be vulnerable. It's a theme of the film, really, that vulnerability is kind of one of the greatest forms of courage. Also, to be vulnerable in a really honest way, don't pick and choose the aspects of yourself that look good or present a certain way. I'm a big believer that if you've gone through an experience, or if you've felt something very deeply, and you're very honest to that experience, that there's gonna be other people [who agree]. None of us are as unique as we think we are, and you're going to find other people that are going to really connect to those things. That would be my biggest advice — just be honest with yourself and to be vulnerable, and to be willing, be willing to go there, you know, because if you're gonna do it. You're going to spend a couple of years, two, three years of your life making a film, and you got to really care about it. If you're going to do it, just fully commit to it and be vulnerable. That would be my advice.
(L-R) Daniel Dorr & Hope Lauren in Pure O. Photo Courtesy of Pure O LLC.
TWM: That’s great advice. I’d love to ask one thing about the creative side of the film. And that's the decision to make the film more of an ensemble piece than solely focusing on this one point of view. [Pure O] talks about the different perspectives and the effects that this condition has on people surrounding the one affected by it. I'd love to know what led to that decision, and was there a version of the script where it's primarily just told through one character's point of view, and why did you settle on the script that you did?
Tucker: It's been intentional the whole time to tell it the way it is. I wanted to de-stigmatize OCD and its perceptions. A big part of that is not only showing the experience itself but really showing how mental health affects others around the person. Everybody's been touched by mental health; even if we haven't experienced it, we pretty much all have a friend or a loved one who's dealt with some form of it. So I think showing that perspective is equally as important as showing the person who's suffering from their perspective. I knew that I wanted to show everybody else's perspective to let the audience go with the lead characters as they witness what [Cooper] goes through in the film so that hopefully, by the end, when [Cooper] has everything that he's learned and everything that he's taken out of the experience, the audience has also seen what the lead character has seen and really been immersed in everything that he's been doing. I think that the audience and the lead character in the film really start out in the same place. I think that the audience is going to meet the lead character where he's at. Whereas he's sort of like, what's going on? And what is this? I think we’re right there at the beginning, and we don't know what this is either. So I think as he learns about these things as the film goes along, it's really in stride with the audience. I think you're learning about it together. My hope is that by the end of the film, we will have built up, and this will lead to a very strong emotional impact.
Pure O premieres at the SXSW film festival on March 11. Keep an eye out for our review after the film’s premiere.
